Is this for real, or a joke? Gaddafi is a long-time US Puppet and appeaser, why do you think he was given a US pardon following Lockerbie? Furthermore, the genuine (not Libyan) anti-systemic movements/forces in these regions are indeed opposed to the economic system. In a genuine, Egyptian-style protest – as described by Pilger, the people may not understand the technicalities of the system, or the inner workings and US-ties of the IMF and World Bank Group, indeed I suggest that most people, including US citizens do not either. They do however understand structuralised poverty, everyday hunger and starvation – hence the food riots. The revolt in Egypt is against such conditions of poverty, which are imposed by the economic system and the liberal internationalist global economic order – as created and dominated by the US (not to mention the backing by the US of a repressive dictator called Mossadeq in the state). As such the revolt is against these groups. Libya is different – The opposition in this case are backed by Western interests, this much is clear (you may recall that Gadaffi appeared ranting on tv as his regime had come under attack from artillery and fighter jets, does this really sound like a group of protesters to you?). These interests, of which it is feasible to suggest may contain paid mercenary groups hostile to Gadaffi, who may be unaware of the duplicitous nature of their actions and that they are being backed by Western Interests. Such interests want total control over the state (contrary to reports, Gaddafi holds great support due to social, health and education programs which are the envy of other Arab States). Be aware that the US created, armed and funded Al Qaeda. Indeed, Republicans undertook this endeavour when backing the Mujahadeen, You are aware of this aren’t you? I believe the current Libya situation is best compared to the US-backed Indonesian military coup by Suharto (which led to 1 million deaths). Indeed, Pilger is hugely knowledgeable on such issues. Expect the end result (or end-game as Americans like to call it) here to be the toppling of Gadaffi and the opening up of Libyan markets to the IMF, World Bank and the economic models which Pilger suggested and identified. They already have clearly stated they are waiting in the wings. Also, the Egyptian revolt has given way to the military re-writing the constitution in a manner which is not progressive at all – and the intervention of the IMF/World Bank in Egypt, which will only dissolve Egyptian sovereignty further, tightening the influence of economic and political control over the state. The current Middle-East impasse amounts to the end of US policy of appeasement – no longer is oil-for-cash-weapons-and-a-US-dictator-pass good enough. Total economic control is the new mandate, free-market liberal capitalism the order of the day. Also, the US did not even consult congress on their actions? Is that how democracy in the US works now? I am a BA graduate of International Politics and an MA in Peace and Conflict, I would be interested in seeing your perspective on the aforementioned realities.

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P.S – Where can I find this in Foreign Policy??? I don’t see it there at all. Any links or anything at all??? I’d like to see what other people think of this. Thanks.

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If you click on Foreign Policy under categories or in the byline you can see other related posts.

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Thank you for the feedback. To clarify, the article is real and Gaddafi is a joke.

According to the Peninsula Peace and Justice Center, Gaddafi has a long history of antagonism towards the United States. As they note, when taking power Gaddafi shut down a US base and thereafter was noted for “his support for extremist movements abroad, including terrorist groups, some of which were responsible for the deaths of American citizens.”

PPJC also notes that “there was a series of military clashes between the United States and Libya”.

http://peaceandjustice.org/article.php/20110225090338770

That’s one violent puppet. Try pre-revolution Egypt or Saudi Arabia for more effective puppet examples.

As for the revolts, you are correct that economic factors helped fan the flames. Yet you have vindicated what I wrote when you write about the strong western ties to the resistance in Egypt and Libya. As you put it, “Libya is different – The opposition in this case are backed by Western interests, this much is clear” and later in your response you said, “Also, the Egyptian revolt has given way to the military re-writing the constitution in a manner which is not progressive at all – and the intervention of the IMF/World Bank in Egypt, which will only dissolve Egyptian sovereignty further, tightening the influence of economic and political control over the state”.

My thesis was that contrary to the claims of Pilger and Chomsky, this was not a rebellion against American imperialism. You confirm that by saying that the Libyan revolt has western backing and Egypt’s current post-Mubarack power structure also involves western-friendly entities.

Also, feel free to correct, but I think you have your leaders mixed up, for the only Mossadeq I am aware of was the socialist prime minister of Iran that the CIA and British, with the help of the Iranian military, overthrew.

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Cheers for the reply. When I wrote Mossadeq in my last post I was clearly muddled-up. I was in a bit of a rush so apologies, i hadn’t even noticed I wrote that (silly me! bad mistake, probably the first of many!).

I understand the antagonistic and tumultuous nature of the US-Gaddafi relationship, I didn’t mean to portray a cosy alliance, thats why I was talking towards the end of my post of an end to an era of appeasement in regards to US-Western policy towards Gaddafi – which has been until now, essentially a business arrangement, as with the Saudis.

The economic systems I mentioned earlier – of which various groups are revolting against in other Arab states such as Egypt are controlled by the US, with hold the well-being of the US economy at the centre of their economic policy formulation. Such groups as the IMF & World Bank are concerned with economic growth, not the welfare of civilians. Economic growth, in terms of corporate profit and GDP does not translate as improved quality of life for citizens.

When I said the revolts in Libya are supported by the West, I meant controlled in terms of a coup, an illegal, western-backed coup – not a humanitarian mission, or some kind of popular movement/revolt as suggested. Whilst many may believe the movement in Libya is in some capacity the product of such a popular pro-democracy movement, it is not. As stated before, the military capacity of the Libyan rebels is not consistent with such a spontaneous rebel movement, although the campaign will naturally draw support from anti-Gaddafi elements as people are forced to take sides, potentially causing an unhealable rift/civil war between the emerging parties/transitional movement and the traditional backers of Gaddafi.

The people of Libya, and also the West are largely unaware of the western ties of the instigators of the rebel movement/coup and of the consequences of such clearly illegal, covert actions. Those Libyans or onlookers which expect “freedom” as an end result of the conflict will be saddened when the reality emerges after this conflict. IMF intervention and the privatisation of Libyan assets will not be done in the interests of the people, the same sell-offs of Libyan wealth displayed in Iraq and Afghanistan will be evident again. The western media are painting the events in Libya as the result of some kind of spontanious Arab-led revolt with popular support. Be very clear about it – this is grossly misleading. This is a coup, a violation of sovereignty which Gaddafi is resisting.

I am aware also that Gaddafi funded groups such as the IRA in the past, but then – the US provided a huge funding base for the IRA also (Chomsky once suggested – rather tounge-in-cheek a US airstrike on Boston, if I remember correctly), as for funding Arab terrorists in the past, the US track record on such issues is similiar as I stated in my last post, not to mention state-terrorism. As for wanting US military bases shut down, I think times like this vindicate his mistrust of the US, nor do I think the Libyan People would have supported such a base either. How about a Chinese base in the US? nope, I thought you’d understand looking at it that way.

You wrote towards the end of your reply – “You confirm that [these are not anti-imperialist movements] by saying that the Libyan revolt has western backing and Egypt’s current post-Mubarack power structure also involves western-friendly entities.” This is a wholly inaccurate assessment of what I said. These are two distinct cases to be judged on their individual merits.

I agree in the case of Libya with your assessment – “this was not a rebellion against American imperialism” – it was not. It was an American-Western Imperialist coup – but it is presented in the Western Media as an extension of other legitimate anti-systemic/imperialist protests and demonstrations across the Arab World. Anti-systemic movements such as those in Egypt, which were – although not presented as such in the western media – opposed to American imposed Imperialist domination over their country (socio-political and economic). Head-wrecking or what, such is the nature of geo-politics I guess!

In the case of Egypt, the revolt/revolution was indeed, as Chomsky and Pilger would suggest – a reaction against such socio-political and economic Imperialism. This reaction against Western imposed Imperialism was hijacked by the military, ensuring Imperialist control is maintained and indeed tightened. Although Mubarek is ousted, he is but one man. The armed forces, those allies of Operation Desert Storm, are in de-facto control of Egypt, it will be interesting to see if the NDP can survive as an entity in the current scenario.

The failures of the Egyptian movement are demonstrated by the failure to achieve the reform goals set by youth movements and those of the Muslim Brotherhood, and by the impending involvement of the IMF/World Bank who will aim to take advantage of the turmoil in the state and tighten their control over the states fiscal controls. It is precisely the involvement of such pro-western elements – including the Egyptian military, who are in control of post-Mubarek Egypt, which reflect the failures of the movement. Understand that pro-western elements, or “Western-friendly” elements as you call them – include the puppets which you have identified and recognised – and represent the interests which the Egyptian people were opposed to. In this context, “western-friendly” essentially means working in the interests of the West – not the Egyptian people – in doing so repressing legitimate democratic change – as with the military proposing (or rather dictating) the limited changes put forward for referendum – true Arab independence, as stated by by Chomsky, does indeed frighten the west, we need only look at past Egyptian attempts to nationalise their wealth and the Western reactions to such efforts to see the truth in this.

Such anti-systemic movements as in Egypt are not unusual, they are also evident across the waters of the Mediterranean. In Europe – where reactions are growing against the IMF/World Bank/WTO axis, as demonstrated by recent unrest in states such as Greece, France and Ireland – leading to resurgent leftist-socialist movements, in cases such as Ireland, this is even more unusual, as a there has never been a strong left. also (obviously) in S.America. The sovereignty of Europe’s states too, is being eroded. The failures of revolutions in Ukraine can be seen as similar to the Egyptian case and reactions in the former Eastern-bloc states such as the Czech Republic and in Poland to US military-bases and missile shields also echo such opposition to western military pre-eminence.

Finally, in the quotes you attribute to Chomsky, he seems to be talking of the wider Arab World – rather than just Libya. Were these quotes made in reference to the Libyan case? I’d suggest, maybe I’m wrong, that he would not have made these remarks in relation to the current situation in Libya. In regard to the Egyptian case though – surely reactions against puppet leaders/dictators are also reactions against those that back them also?

So all in all –

Egypt – A reaction against Western imposed Imperialism…. which was hijacked by the military, ensuring Imperialist control is maintained and indeed tightened although Mubarek is ousted – as demonstrated by the failure to achieve the reform goals set by youth movements and the Muslim Brotherhood, and the subsequent moves of the IMF.

Libya – Western Imperialism in action… a coup, which almost failed as Gaddafi regrouped and fought back, until the West made their involvement official, they are now flooding weapons to the rebels and bombing campaigns are being undertaken. Without troops on the ground, and short of a total rebel-victory, this war could grow seriously ugly.

I doubt the US, however, would want to intervene with troops on the ground, as if their role in the rebel uprisng/coup is coupled with direct intervention it would damage the US rationale legally, financially, ideologically (creating further Arab hostility) and also cost Obama dearly politically with a liberal base sick of fighting Arab Wars. However in the event of a lack of progress – Intervention may be the last resort in order to gain total control – which is after all, the endgame.

As shown, of course there are anti-Imperialist revolts in Arab States, went went largely unreported, such as in Iraq and Afghanistan in recent weeks. The history of the Arab World is one of struggle against Imperialism in its various guises – why should the idea of such movements be so hard to fathom? the US itself was borne of such struggles against the tyranny of empire, a little empathy is required here.

Would you not agree with at least some of these assertions?

Thanks again by the way, for taking the time to respond. I’m new to this political discussion online (a bit of a dinosaur, I still like pens and paper, for my sins) and am thinking of getting blogging myself. Good to get a US Conservative view of events – I’d better remember to sort my Mossadeqs from my Mubareks next time though – and my Talibans from my Talibanis! Thats my credibility blown! Sorry if my post was long-winded, I’m a bit of a US Foreign Policy junkie like yourself. I’ll try to cut down next time, as I said, I’m new to this! Thanks Michael, I look forward to reading your posts in the future – if I get the blog going (probably be a while), i’ll refer folks to your stuff if thats okay. p.s don’t worry – I don’t expect a reply this long!

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I was just thinking about the current situation in Egypt and Libya – I wondered did you ever reply to my last comments.

Over half a year has now passed.

In post-Gaddafi Libya – the ‘rebels’ are rounding up the opposition with a complete disregard for International law and human rights. The same law and rights which were cited by the US and it’s allies as a pretext/rationale for the coup and attacks in/against Libya (Also without the consent of congress. If that bothers you).

http://www.channel4.com/news/un-chief-disturbing-libyan-human-rights-abuses

But thats fine isn’t it?

Meanwhile the people of Egypt are battling once more – against this latest Western-backed puppet government.

I explained that this western-backed hijack of a genuine revolt in Egypt had happened/was happening back in March. You refused however, to accept this reality.

The coup in Egypt was presented as a great success by the West -and by analysts such as yourself.

The new regime is essentially the same as the last – backed by the West, representing it’s interests and not those of the Egyptian people – only now the Egyptians have even less say in their future.

Egypt’s ‘revolution’ was more like a cabinet reshuffle, it was not like the Libyan coup (a full-blown militarily backed coup) but a coup it was nonetheless.

This is why the protests in Egypt have begun again in earnest.

The ‘means’ used by Western influences to attain their goals of tighter socio-political and economic control over both Libya and Egypt are what seperates the two cases.

These ‘ends’ sought remain the same.

What was predicted has come to pass.

Libya has a new leader today. I wonder where his allegiances, and those of his cabinet lie? Don’t expect to be shocked.

A Google search can tell you who these people are, where they were trained, who they are funded by and where their operations were planned from. A modern day ‘Bay of Pigs’ if you will.

This information is available in the public domain – yet ignored by the mainstream media.

One good piece of scholarly work on these issues – for example:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=23548

I fear for Libya.

The repurcussions of the Libyan intervention will be felt there for decades to come. That supporters of the former ruling party are being/ will be persecuted – without distinction between innocent citizens or militia, has already set the tone in Libya. They were after all – ‘the enemy’.

Such actions have the potential to unleash escalated sectarian violence across Libya – leading to a retaliatory discourse – which will take it’s natural course.

In such a scenario, this violence has the potential to lead to alliances and support forming between anti-western interests in the region, who may feel for the plight of followers of the ousted regime – such as with Afghanistan and Iraq.

Many of these groups as you know, have a less ‘moderate’ approach than Gaddafi.

The crimes and violence already committed by either group during the conflict in Libya will already have led to deep-rooted hatreds between the differing groups within the country, as a result of citizens being forced to ‘take sides’ as the war escalated.

So numerous and horrific are the crimes committed against each other by either side – that differences may already be irreconcilable.

I predect that NATO will have a lot of blood on their hands once/if this conflict ever ends. I suggest, however they will likely wash their hands of any suggestion that their actions played a role in creating and perpetuating such violence.

I hate to say ‘I told you so’. I’d rather this was not the case. But it is.

I fear the future does not look bright for the average citizen in either Libya or Egypt – and that unrest and violence in the region will escalate.

Give it another 7-8 months and I feel that again you’ll find my assertions difficult to argue with. I feel I was pretty accurate in my assessments last time.

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Told you.

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